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post #1 of 28Old12-26-2003, 05:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm trying to get a good all around in-wall speaker cable (will power B&W 602's S3) for my dedicated theater which is in the wiring stages... I was just going to go with cheap 14ga 4cond monster cable... then I found I could get CL3 rated OMC (Original Monster Cable) and XPHP Time Correct Cable.
Is it worth it to pay a few dollars more for time correct cable? Thoughts?
http://www.monstercable.com/custom_i...I.asp?pin=1447
Thanks,
Danny
Is it worth it to pay a few dollars more for time correct cable? Thoughts?
http://www.monstercable.com/custom_i...I.asp?pin=1447
Thanks,
Danny
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If you think that looks good, check out the oxygen-Free bidirectional copper cable at http://www.satcure-focus.com/audiotech/page4.htm
Pat
While I may link to and mention products as examples, I don't recommend specific products.
While I may link to and mention products as examples, I don't recommend specific products.
post #3 of 28Old12-26-2003, 08:25 PM - Thread Starter
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hahahaha... so it's all just a bunch of crap? People say that 14ga 'lamp cord' shouldn't be used because it's optimized for 60hz AC power, so you'll get great lows but your highs won't sound that great. Because of this... you need time correct cables because the high frequencies travel on the outside of the copper cable and the lower frequences on other strands so highs, mids and lows all travel at the same time... is all this stuff just a bunch of hoopla? Who has the answer?
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yeah, it's crap. Go to Home Depot, buy 12 gauge FT4 inwall rated speaker wire (probably thicker than you need but still will do the job more than adequately well for a fraction of the cost of Monster). All you need is a big chunk of copper. Let's face it, how fast is the speed of light? and how far does the signal have to travel? Time corrected indeed.
See here for some interesting reading about the history of speaker wire. Very interesting read:
http://home.earthlink.net/~rogerr7/wire.htm
See here for some interesting reading about the history of speaker wire. Very interesting read:
http://home.earthlink.net/~rogerr7/wire.htm
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Thanks for the link. The one I had started almost at the end of the page.
Pat
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While I may link to and mention products as examples, I don't recommend specific products.
post #6 of 28Old12-26-2003, 09:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks! This stuff pisses me off... when will speaker cable manufactures stop this scam?
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Major professional theaters use 14 gauge 2 conductor BX electrical cable.
Thats what we are using on a home theater I am working on right now.
Thats what we are using on a home theater I am working on right now.
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| Originally posted by mavromatis Thanks! This stuff pisses me off... when will speaker cable manufactures stop this scam? |
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Many sales are based on Gilette economics. Sell razors below cost and make the money on blades. $100 inkjet printers are sold for $60 with 1/4 full cartridges and no cable. Then $5 cartridges are sold for $30 and $3 cables go for $20. Many consumers will spend lots of time finding the best deal on big ticket items so the manufacturers need to to make money on peripherals. The extended warranty is the biggest money maker. The advice to 'spend 10% of the home theatre budget on cables and wires' is a close second.
Pat
While I may link to and mention products as examples, I don't recommend specific products.
While I may link to and mention products as examples, I don't recommend specific products.
post #10 of 28Old12-27-2003, 08:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Really? They just run standard solid 14 ga electrical cable? What about AC interference?
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| Originally posted by mavromatis Really? They just run standard solid 14 ga electrical cable? What about AC interference? |
Pat
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While I may link to and mention products as examples, I don't recommend specific products.
post #12 of 28Old12-27-2003, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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hmmm... would building inspectors reject the idea of BX cable for theater speaker cable? Why wouldn't I use BX 14 ga cable for the theater? Or should I just go for the 12 ga home depot speaker cable?
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14ga CL2 or 3 rated is all you need. If you like overkill, the 12ga will do fine. Metal sheathing is for keeping union electricians fed or rats hungry for insulation.
Pat
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also using larger the 14 gauge it will be difficult terminating the wire because most if not all terminators (not Arnie :)) wont take larger the 14 easily
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Or, you could get lucky like I did. My Home Depot's wire-by-the-foot area didn't have a posted price for the 12-gauge, so the guy gave me 100 feet for the price of the 14-gauge. :D| also using larger the 14 gauge it will be difficult terminating the wire because most if not all terminators wont take larger the 14 easily |
PartsExpress has others available, but here are two banana plugs--
Up to 10-gauge:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...=091-330&DID=7
Up to 8-gauge:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...091-1260&DID=7
And two insert connectors for wall plates (up to 10-gauge):
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...umber=091-1206
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...umber=091-1207
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| Originally posted by greywolf If you think that looks good, check out the oxygen-Free bidirectional copper cable at http://www.satcure-focus.com/audiotech/page4.htm |
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| Originally posted by mavromatis hmmm... would building inspectors reject the idea of BX cable for theater speaker cable? Why wouldn't I use BX 14 ga cable for the theater? Or should I just go for the 12 ga home depot speaker cable? |
But wire gauge isn't. Speakers are low volatge high current devices. So voltage drop is an issue. 14ga is fine for under 25 feet but longer I would go with #12. #10 even better but I agree there will be termination problems with thicker wire.
I run bi-amped LCR's. The low drivers are on 12ga at 50 feet and the high drivers are on 16ga. This has nothing to do with skin effect, it's just that 16ga is cehaper than 12ga and that's all the tweeters need.
I also find it comical that some people think thinner wire is better even in HF use. Think about it, the larger the wire, the more surface area it has. So RF signals still need 'fat' wires at higher power levels. Look at any transmission cable such as a cell site. The cables or wave guides are big because they need that surface area to carry the current. What doesn't matter is the inner conductor material. The wire can be a tube at RF frequencies and still appear to be a solid conductor. At microwave frequencies, above 600mhz, wave guide is often used.
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post #18 of 28Old12-29-2003, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm surprised there hasn't been one person confirming any of Monster Cables claim... I think I'm going to do the BX 14-2 ga. solid electrical cable. You can't beat Solid copper cable... no special 'time correct' winding is necessary.
Anyone against this?
Thanks again!
Danny
Anyone against this?
Thanks again!
Danny
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It will work fine. I still don't know why you want to put in extra work and expense over a nonmetallic sheathed cable. What's the armor for?
Pat
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post #20 of 28Old12-29-2003, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Well... I'm starting a new Speaker Cable line...
Secure Speaker Cable PRO(R) - We are the first cable company to provide solid copper core wire surrounded by a metallic sheathing for extra protection. Your speaker cables should never be left unsecured! The real metal sheathing also give our speaker cables a unique commercial look not found in any other competitors cable line. Available in natural aluminum, black or white. Custom color matching is available. Please specify 100' boxed rolls of 14 or 12 gauge solid copper 2 conductor cable.
We also offer our PRO line in Unsecure model for installations where our secure conduit has already been run... The nonmetallic version has the same superb sound quality as the secure model but comes in our more flexible designer white or visible yellow sheathing. We recommend this cable for areas that don't need the extra secure protection, or if ran inside of our secure conduiting system (SCS-1000).
Please call for pricing.
Secure Speaker Cable PRO(R) - We are the first cable company to provide solid copper core wire surrounded by a metallic sheathing for extra protection. Your speaker cables should never be left unsecured! The real metal sheathing also give our speaker cables a unique commercial look not found in any other competitors cable line. Available in natural aluminum, black or white. Custom color matching is available. Please specify 100' boxed rolls of 14 or 12 gauge solid copper 2 conductor cable.
We also offer our PRO line in Unsecure model for installations where our secure conduit has already been run... The nonmetallic version has the same superb sound quality as the secure model but comes in our more flexible designer white or visible yellow sheathing. We recommend this cable for areas that don't need the extra secure protection, or if ran inside of our secure conduiting system (SCS-1000).
Please call for pricing.
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post #21 of 28Old12-29-2003, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
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greywolf,
To answer your question... the armor is used to protect my marketing angle...
;)
Danny
To answer your question... the armor is used to protect my marketing angle...
;)
Danny
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Oh no! Chicago is probably going to require it in the next revision of the building code. Let no wire go unsheathed.
Pat
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I use 12AWG THX wire, because I didn't want to retro wire back in the walls after the fact. It may make a difference for long runs. But the marketing hype you gentleman have mentioned is for real. Take Ray Kimbers pure silver speaker wire. Funny, most of the wiring in amps is copper anyway. And someone mentioned skin effect early in this thread. True, a human cannot tell the difference. Electrons may indeed flow on the outside of the conductor, but change is not noticed at the range of human hearing. Way above 20k HZ, MHZ. Noel Lee's fad of time correct may actually be found in all wire.
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post #24 of 28Old12-30-2003, 08:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Here it is!!
http://www.mavromedia.com/tofrom/secureCable.jpg
http://www.mavromedia.com/tofrom/secureCable.jpg
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Mavromatis,
Looks great, I'll take a 1000'. But you need to add a battery powered active shield 'earther' gimmick or a bubinga wood termination box as an option for 10x the price. Of course, you would want to offer the shielding in various cool metallic colors.
But seriously, consider normal low voltage speaker wiring if you are going to have your installation inspected as part of the construction process. An inspector could find the use of BX or unsheathed Romex problematic. It doesn't matter what the NEC says, or what is 'technically' correct. The very best way to not get a signoff is to quote the inspector the NEC book, chapter, and verse. Local practice rules.
Hey Greywolf,
When I lived in Elmhurst many moons ago EVERYTHING had to be in conduit or BX. No Romex allowed. Wonder if they've lightened up.
As an aside, I distinctly remember a Society of Broadcast Engineers meeting in Nashville, TN, where a monster cable rep was explaining how, with their wire, the high frequencies traveled on the outside, in special very high gauge # wires, the mids in the next layer of slightly fatter wires, and the bass in a lower gauge number 'core'. All, of course uninsulated in the same PVC jacket. During the question section, an engineer asked 'If your cable is so selective for frequency, can I get rid of the expensive dividing networks (crossovers) in my multi-way arrays, and just terminate your cable for highs, mids, and lows? The monster rep was speechless. Everyone else was laughing. Touche'
Looks great, I'll take a 1000'. But you need to add a battery powered active shield 'earther' gimmick or a bubinga wood termination box as an option for 10x the price. Of course, you would want to offer the shielding in various cool metallic colors.
But seriously, consider normal low voltage speaker wiring if you are going to have your installation inspected as part of the construction process. An inspector could find the use of BX or unsheathed Romex problematic. It doesn't matter what the NEC says, or what is 'technically' correct. The very best way to not get a signoff is to quote the inspector the NEC book, chapter, and verse. Local practice rules.
Hey Greywolf,
When I lived in Elmhurst many moons ago EVERYTHING had to be in conduit or BX. No Romex allowed. Wonder if they've lightened up.
As an aside, I distinctly remember a Society of Broadcast Engineers meeting in Nashville, TN, where a monster cable rep was explaining how, with their wire, the high frequencies traveled on the outside, in special very high gauge # wires, the mids in the next layer of slightly fatter wires, and the bass in a lower gauge number 'core'. All, of course uninsulated in the same PVC jacket. During the question section, an engineer asked 'If your cable is so selective for frequency, can I get rid of the expensive dividing networks (crossovers) in my multi-way arrays, and just terminate your cable for highs, mids, and lows? The monster rep was speechless. Everyone else was laughing. Touche'
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| Originally posted by Tom Rosback Hey Greywolf, When I lived in Elmhurst many moons ago EVERYTHING had to be in conduit or BX. No Romex allowed. Wonder if they've lightened up. |
Pat
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post #27 of 28Old01-01-2004, 11:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Oh one more thing... I hope this wasn't against AVS Forum Rules... but I started two of these exact threads on both Audio Theory and Home Theater Builder... Take a gander over here to see what the Audio Theory guys had to say... Interesting stuff as well...
https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0&pagenumber=1
https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0&pagenumber=1
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'Oh one more thing... I hope this wasn't against AVS Forum Rules... '
No, I will not report it to the Moderators. I feel the mature way to settle conflict is with the person, not tattle-tale.:D
No, I will not report it to the Moderators. I feel the mature way to settle conflict is with the person, not tattle-tale.:D
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